That layout is becoming outstanding. I am very impressed by the layout and the techniques used but also by the high level of discussion the top notch modelers have. Another thread of big blue that would be a perfect chapter in a top model railroad book.
It is a pleasure and privileg to see the photos and try to learn from your discussion. Thank you gentleman!

Gus, thanks for the compliments. I'm pleased with the results for the most part, and am encouraged to continue on.

Greg, your mountain scene is still tops in my book. Comparing our two backdrops is like comparing apples to oranges though... mine is mostly geometric shapes, while yours is a beautiful work of art!

ocalicreek Wrote:Gary - to my eye the Walgreens building and scene looks super. The street somehow looks like a dust storm or fog has rolled in...maybe too much gray? As for the street lights and all that wire, I think you should definately find a way to work it in somehow. All the lines and wires in your prototype picture really add to the urban feel. Drawing them on with a pen or even pencil might work fine. Modeling power lines is tricky. Plenty of great ways to do poles...lines, not so much.

Galen, the street definitely needs work. You're right, the traffic signals and wires need to be put in, along with the other horizontal stuff in the background. I think that will help delineate the hazy background shapes down the road from the blue sky above, which will negate the "dust storm" look! For practice and experimentation, what Iwill do is stick a piece of paper to the backdrop at the street and then draw in the traffic signals and everything, just to get a feel for what needs to be done.

ocalicreek Wrote:I have found that wire works better to model ropes and, sometimes string works better to model wire. Go figure. But most of the time wire holds its shape and can be carefully curved to hang the way you need it to. A little off topic, but I DO NOT like the stretchy string used on the pre-wired telephone poles...looks too taut to be power lines or telephone lines.

I'm with you. The stretchy line stuff pulled tight never looks right to me. Has anyone ever tried leaving it a little loose so it will hang like real power lines?

ocalicreek Wrote:Why not paint the line on the backdrop and glue on a styrene streetlight?

Hmmm... makes sense and should have been obvious! Thanks!

Galen[/quote]

P5se Camelback Wrote:The device, or I think “ploy” was the word I used before, is the introduction of the "sub-title" curve introduced in the road. It is just enough to cause the eye a small amount of "confusion," a little extra to process that pure straight lines do not present for processing by the brain. Remember the "less is more" principle that Mies van der Rohe was so into? The road here is a perfect example of that multi-duty minimalism put into practice. It is such a simple device, two lines that curve gradually to one side, growing ever closer together, and containing a field of gradually lightening color as it recedes ever so slightly to the right. The device here leads the eye astray, fools it with constantly graying and fading color, forces it to perceive a change in direction and leads it to mere suggestion that “there is more there than meets the eye.” And while those two lines delineate the constantly diminished color saturation and reduced hue of the “road surface,” together they’re a device that causes the eye to work to the point where it wants to move on, because, “way back there,” it seems there is entirely too much to take in quickly. But when you really look at what’s actually back there … there’s not a whole lot of any real recognizable substance! Beautiful!

I've read many times in model railroad books (and here at Big Blue) about not making stuff on the layout go directly into the backdrop. As you explain it, and as I have been experiencing it, it finally sinks into my brain why it is important. Especially streets which continue straight into the backdrop, because of the perfectly straight lines. With a street perpendicular to the backdrop, the expected "perspective point" or "vanishing point" is a moving target which cannot be captured with paint. But the curved road as in Mike C's backdrop avoids the moving vanishing point. Good stuff to comprehend! Thanks for the discussion on the topic here and later in your reply. It is funny, but I can read about this stuff in the model railroad literature, but until I actually experienced it, it was just so many words.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Note the color used all the way to the rear of the road (or just up from the horizontal plane … a very light gray, a spot of light? Sunlight? Maybe. Who knows! It’s a familiar, comfortable distraction from getting too involved in everything that isn’t there … another ploy or device used to put the viewer in his “comfort zone” so he is relaxed enough to accept what his eye is telling the brain is there, but it works because the transition is gradual.

Yes, that lighter area on the distant road is exactly what the viewer expects to see. As the road recedes, the angle of viewing from our eyes becomes less and less, to the point where light is bouncing off the surface, almost like the "mirage" effect. Now, I do hope to make use of this newfound knowledge in conjunction with my bayous and waterways, which will be curved on the backdrop.

P5se Camelback Wrote:The notion of framing the road “going into the backdrop” again brought a wry smile to my face! “he’s really getting it! It’s so cool! It’s brilliant! And mixing two dimensional and three dimensional versions of the same thing in the same scene is ‘beyond the box” thinking! I would try painting the distant ones (2D) and mounting some not-very-detailed 3D ones directly on the backdrop. I’d try music wire or maybe a thin brass wire that you can introduce the proper “hang,” but place it very, very close to the backdrop in an effort to eliminate the possibility of an unwanted shadow. Those things ar anachronistic and ruin otherwise beautiful illusions!

I think Galen hit it, glue the signals to the backdrop, but paint or draw the wires in. Like I said to him, I'll put some paper or poster board against the backdrop right there at the street, and then practice with colored pencils until I get it looking right. From there, I'll put it on with paint.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Gary, you are headlong on a course to become the “go-to” backdrop guy in Houston, mark my words! You have grasped a couple semesters of artistic principle in only a night of concentrated effort! I have had fun exposing the concepts and principles! My enjoyment was tripled by watching you tackle and immediately grasp the techniques. I hope that you have enjoyed doing it as much as I have enjoyed exposing it! The only thing left is dogged repetition and concentration … at least in the beginning. Later on you’ll be able to carry it off by just watching the brushes do their thing while you think about the next scene down the line!

biL, several weeks ago I serendipitously ran across an article in an old issue of MR where a slide projector was used to project background images on the backdrop, and a pencil was used to trace in the buildings and windows and trees and such. Then the projector was turned off and thinnned water-based paint was used to fill in the shapes. Of course, the purpose of the "washes" was to leave some of the backdrop color showing through, in effect giving a blended hazy look to everything. The technique looked easy enouh, and the photos in the article looked convincing, so that is what gave me the confidence to get started. I'm not using a projector, but I am certainly using photos of the area to draw in the shapes. Along with using thinned paints, I stumbled across uisng light blue or gray paint, thinned heavily, and washed over the backdrop, to increase the "hazy" feel. Now, so far, all the buildings I have done are fairly close to the foreground, so they do have detail and aren't washed out all that much. But other areas of the layout will have objects way off in the distance on the horizon, so I'll be learning more about that too.

As always, thanks for your detailed analysis, and for the encouragement!

faraway Wrote:I am very impressed by the layout and the techniques used but also by the high level of discussion the top notch modelers have. Another thread of big blue that would be a perfect chapter in a top model railroad book.
It is a pleasure and privileg to see the photos and try to learn from your discussion. Thank you gentleman!

You're right, all the discussion is good stuff. As I mentioned to biL, trying the techniques while at the same time having the benefit of the discussion here has
really helped me! Still, I am just barely started into this, and so far, the background scenes (except for that darn street) are fairly easy, just geometric shapes. BiL's commentary and enthusiasm has me motivated to tackle the distant treelines on the horizon in other scenes. And maybe even a hazy representation of the downtown Houston skyline.

"And maybe even a hazy representation of the downtown Houston skyline "

That's a commendable goal...But we wouldn't want to see you drop all this train stuff and go into mural painting....

Gary It certainly looks good, although the one thing that stands out to me is that looking at the backdrop it looks like your road is entering a rural area as opposed to the city/town scene that your actually modelling.

Best rgds
Dave

Not to worry, Gus... the trains are more fun than murals!

Dave, I agree with you, the street needs work. The traffic signals should help, and maybe even some hazy vertical lines to represent the power poles. Any thoughts on how to improve the area would be appreciated! I'm open to suggestions.

Observation of the world around you is the "A-Number One" key to "getting it right."

... and once again ... the ring that the key is on is the REPETITION one! One can only learn to represent "the world" by observation ... by seeing what's actually there, and then reproducing what is observed in a method that meets the intended goals. The materials and method used are totally dependant upon the intended visual goal. A tree is not only portrayed using one method, or always the same media!

Indulge me once more and allow me to illustrate. I was into cars from a very early on. Drawing them well became a high priority. I would sit in class in junior high school and draw cars and listen to the teacher, while everyone else took notes. (It drove my teachers nuts!) By ninth or tenth grade, using a pencil, doing drawings in black on a white page, studying what the guys who did the really cool drawings in Hot Rod and Car Craft magazines did and then replicating what I had determined where their visual devices to "get the look."

When I got to college, and COLOR came into the picture (no pun intended.) I was a total "duck out of water" ... I was lost! I had studied technique, but I had no clue as to why it worked in B&W or how to approach it in color.

I had an intense discussion with a faculty member whose drawing style I was in awe of, expecting to be told "how-to-do-it." HA! No such luck! What I got instead was a ten minute one-on-one personal lecture on the value of learning to "look" at objects with the goal of learning to "see" them, and then to understand what the elements were that described them as three-dimensional objects to my eyes. DAMN! Disappointment! I would have to work it out for myself!

But I soon realized that he had handed me the secret … the secret to drawing anything … in any media! And the secret ... is "seeing" through "studied observation!"

There was a car that parked half a block up the street from the front of PCA in the same spot every day. It had chromed “reverse” rims. Several times a day, when I had a spare 15 minutes, I would go sit on the curb, straddling the wheel, staring into it, trying desperately to understand why it looked the way it did … what was it that made my eyes see chrome, as well as the depth of the wheel?

It took a couple weeks (sometimes I’m “slow”) but I finally hit on it! Chrome has no color of its own! The wheel looked three-dimensional due to the reflective qualities of the chrome plating!!!!

From that point on, it was a matter of coming to understand what is reflected where on the surfaces, how that gives it its form, and which colors best represent the objects and textures that are reflected. Check it out some time … the reflective surface at the bottom of a wheel (in this instance) which faces up is always the color of the sky, only slightly muted.

O.K. … I’ve gone on long enough … the point is …

To represent the landscape you must actually see it and understand why it looks as it does. Once you can make that determination, it will soon become second nature and you won’t even think about it … you’ll just do it!

Appreciate that commentary, biL. Alot of times, we seem to have realized something, yet we don't put it into practice. I'm thinking that some of it may be an unwillingness to put in the work, wondering if the results will be worth the effort, and perhaps feeling it won't, that a "good enough" result can be had with less effort. But the funny thing is, if you put in the work up front, and keep doing it, it will cease being hard effort and will become second nature, just as you mention. As with anything, you get out what you put in, and I'm not just talking about a good result on the layout. I'm also talking about the personal developemtn of skills and perspective and knowledge. Sometimes, an epipahany itself is the reward!

I am going to make a valiant effort to stand back from the photos I am using, and just "see" them for awhile, trying to discern the basic elements that are there - not the minor details and distractions, but the overall form. Just exactly what is it that will give the illusion of the photo on the backdrop? What minimal amount of shapes will still give the effect?

This is very cool stuff! Thanks biL!

I'm pleased that possibly the recounting of my own "AHA!" personal discoveries and art-related visual revelations, along with some of the concepts and principles of representative illustration that I learned in school and subsequently put to use practically on a daily basis were of some small help to you and maybe even to others pondering developing backdrops as well. I have grown a bit concerned though, that with all my many posts in this thread, that I may have been starting to sound, as my daughter so often accuses me, like some "arrogant know-it-all ass" ... and so I will now sit down and shut up!

I'm sure things will go just fine with your backdrop, Gary, as your are off to an incredibly unbelievable start! Your work on the backdrop to date is absolutely stunning! There's no doubt in my mind that when completed, you backdrop will appear so natural as to be "unremarkably normal" and become just a part of the "peripheral view" of your growing layout!!

So I will check the "active posts" to continue to watch your layout progess as I work with a finecut jeweler's file inside the rough-cut openings for ten windows and two doorways cut into four sorta wide strips of styrene which will become the four "masonry" walls for "The House for San Berdoo," until the windows and doors are a perfect slip-fit. After all, the houses of San Bernardino did not build themselves and the family of LPB's who will call this particular one home will soon grow rather weary of sleeping in the Airflow Imperial Eight out in the Garage!!

Keep looking to "see" ... and "see" those elements that cause the eye to perceive the things that it does ... and then use that understanding to reproduce those visual cues ...

... and remember ... it's only background support for the main attraction ... a slow moving way freight hauling a half-dozen carloads of Idaho Spuds to the Mountain King industrial siding for unloading and processing! I can't wait ... but I will ... 'cuz it'll be worth it ... I have no doubt!

P5se Camelback Wrote:I have grown a bit concerned though, that with all my many posts in this thread, that I may have been starting to sound, as my daughter so often accuses me, like some "arrogant know-it-all ass" ... and so I will now sit down and shut up!

Not at all, biL! I very very very much appreciate your time and effort in getting the info out. It is certainly great food for thought, and I hope that you will continue with your commentary whenever you see fit. You really have helped me.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Keep looking to "see" ... and "see" those elements that cause the eye to perceive the things that it does ... and then use that understanding to reproduce those visual cues ...

... and remember ... it's only background support for the main attraction ... a slow moving way freight hauling a half-dozen carloads of Idaho Spuds to the Mountain King industrial siding for unloading and processing! I can't wait ... but I will ... 'cuz it'll be worth it ... I have no doubt!

I haven't been home since wednesday due to some work stuff, finally got home saturday night, and managed to get some work done on the layout today. Detailed some telephone poles as per the prototype, made some traffic signals, and a fire hydrant. Then I painted and drew some wires over the street.

Here's what we have now:

[attachment=19995]

[attachment=19994]

And the straight on shot, and a closeup at a lower angle.

[attachment=19993]

[attachment=19992]

Anyone have ideas on what else to do behind the vehicles? I think I will add a couple of painted on poles with street lights, progressively shrinking in the distance, at the edges of the road.

Gary, the overall effect of the modeled foreground and the painted background is a homogenous one, to say the least! It all works … until one moves to where the should disappear into the distance. It doesn't "fall apart" there, but the illusion loses some of it believability.

The problem in that area is not one of "not enough," but rather one of "too much!" You have thoughtfully applied each of the devices that were discussed over the past week or so boldly and with great success ... except in the one area that had the potential to bring all of the well-executed illusions to a grinding, gear-wrenching halt!

The eye (and brain) read the "atmosphere" between the spot from where they are viewing a scene nd the objects in the scene by a lessening of color intensity and a loss of detail as the scene recedes. You have accomplished that everywhere except where that damn street seemingly heads off into the distance. The way it currently appears, it is early in the day, the morning fog is burning off, and has totally burned off where we, the viewers are standing, but it has quite a ways to go further down the street.

The "far distance" is fine ... but pump up the visual volume at the actual intersection of the foreground and the background and then let it fade.

Take a moment to go back and review the work of MikeC and look at how that road and the objects on either side of it are represented and what he has done to make it appear that the distance increases as the eye is allowed to “travel back into the scene.”

You’ve done some masterful work, Gary! If you don’t believe me, go back to Page 66 of this thread and realize how far you’ve progressed in just two short weeks! Absolutely amazing progress! Anyone would think that you had taken a couple semesters of elective classes in illustration and were the star student at that school where you hold all the pieces together! You’ve broken the ground and laid the foundation. You have taken it from the three-dimensional foreground and pushed it into the distance. You are now at the “tweaking” stage … a little tweak here, a little tweak there … This is where the "real work" for every artist really begins! Bringing it to this point is the easy part ...

A little more observation, Buddy … a little more understanding … that’s all that currently stands between you and button-popping, suspender-snapping success at South Wayside!

Gary, that looks great. The background with it's faded colors matches very well.

The scene is coming together very nicely. But... I must ask, will the cop pull over the yellow pickup for tailgating?