nachoman Wrote:They have printers that print on 48" wide rolls of paper up to 96 inches long. I use one at work for printing maps and such, but I've also had to have some stuff printed at Kinkos. My thoughts were to use photos where you need details, and then just a tree/sky backdrop for the rural areas. The reason I say this, is that distant hills, trees, and sky can be relatively easily painted, but more detailed things like trucks and dumpsters could be quite tedious.

Any idea what something that big costs? Also, does anyone have any links to layouts that used the photo backdrops, or layered stuff?

Gary S Wrote:Any idea what something that big costs? Also, does anyone have any links to layouts that used the photo backdrops, or layered stuff?

I don't recall. I was on an expense account but I remember it being more expensive than I expected. Generally, the service is used for oversized technical drawings:

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EDIT: You may want to PM Trainnut:

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For whatever it may be worth - I think your painted backdrop looks really good. I also think the advice offered make sense. To summarize my take on it:

1) stay with a painted backdrop instead of a picture - it ought to be far easier to color match paint to foreground and other backgrounds later than to color match pictures taken under different lighting conditions. I also like the softer focus you automatically get with painting, compared with a picture

2) Lose the car on the backdrop - it is far smaller than the building, and between us and the building, so our brains keep expecting it to "move" leftwards relative to the building as we move rightwards along the fascia. That is not so marked for the tree, since the other tree in the foreground serves that function, and trees anyways have a less regular shape, so it is harder to notice that the perspective doesn't change as much as it "should".

3) Do something about the corner (as you have planned to do all along, since this is a test, not the final product). I like the suggestion of moving the sign to help cover the corner (and provide a 3D object that draws away attention from the building).

No matter how you do this, I suspect it will look great, as always!

Grin,
Stein

I would not worry about the street. If you leave it out and the building is just a building next door to the bank, I don't think anyone will notice. I think that trying to paint the street in between the bank and the the building next door will at best work from a straight on perspective, but as soon as a person moves to either side, the illusion may be lost.

Spent yesterday eveing adding a 12 vDC power supply and wiring under the layout. This will be for future grade crossings signals and perhaps lights. Then I spent a couple hours cleaning up the entire room so it wouldn't be such a mess when I started the backdrop - which began this morning.

Now, I haven't accomplished very much, but that's the way these things go, something entirely new to me, so I am doing alot of looking and thinking. Once the learning curve passes, I am confident that I'l make good time on this. I decided to go with Russ and SP1's ideas of "less is more". And as docWayne said, "You want a backdrop to be noticeable only when you don't have one, so keep the details to a minimum."

In experiment mode, I have been painting a little, then setting the buildings in place for a look, then paint, buildings, look, etc. Definitely taking some time. I also threw some paint on the blue foam for a better representation. Still have more to do on the backdrop. I'm finding out that lighter hazy colors are what needs to be used, even if the photos of the scenes are much more colorful and dark. Mostly I am drawing light lines with a pencil, then using craft paint diluted about 50% with water. Three good things about that... the paint goes onto the backdrop easily, it leaves a hue of the sky color showing through giving the hazy effect, and it dries fast. The hair dryer makes it dry even faster.

Here are some progress photos. The scens are not even close to finished, will get real ground cover, weeds, power poles, fencing, all that stuff.

The camera was held about where a person would be if they were controlling a train coming through the area. First photo from the left...

[attachment=19984]

Second photo, foreground trees breaking up the backdrop:

[attachment=19983]

Here's the tough one, street straight into backdrop. The vehicles help break it up. But, it definitely needs work. I painted the road up on the backdrop almost 1/2", then tried to do background trees that hang over the road like the prototype. Those trees are way off in the distance, I haven't exactly capture that, but will keep working on it.

[attachment=19982]

And a view from the right, again there is stuff in the way to break up and hide the backdrop painting:

[attachment=19981]

Okay, back to work!

Gary, by golly, I think you have it. I like the looks of what you are doing. Keep posting, I need all the help I can get...Great looking layout.
Charlie

It's nice seeing things from people in other parts of the country, because up here in the Northeast we don't grow those big yellow and black trees, much less include them on our layouts

In all seriousness, it looks great! Perpendicular into the backdrop, I don't know what else you can do. I don't think I've seen any that hold the effect from any viewing angle - most os the time there is a curve int he street, or it's at an angle - if there was enough space to angle the road you could use a mirror.

--Randy

Thanks Charlie, am still out there working away... so far, this is slow! But like I said, once I get the hang of it and refine my technique, it should go quicker.

Randy, when I first read your post with "black and yellow" trees, I was wondering "huh?" :?: But then it dawned on me!

At the real road, there is a set of traffic signal lights hanging across the road on horizontal wires. I wonder if I should paint them in? Maybe that would help break up the view?

Gary S Wrote: ... I decided to go with Russ and SP1's ideas of "less is more". And as docWayne said, "You want a backdrop to be noticeable only when you don't have one, so keep the details to a minimum."

I just couldn't not comment! You have discovered several undeniable truths! First is "Less is More," the main tenant of both Mimimalism and the Dutch De Stijl movement, and a driving force behind much of the work of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, German architect who began making a name for himself in the twenties, and was one of the founders of the industrial design discipline. He is also is known for the saying "God is in the Details."

The basic concept was to create an impression of extreme simplicity, by using every element and detail of a design to serve multiple visual and functional purposes, like careful placement of a tree to break up the skyline, carry the eye from one scene to the next, all the while simultaneouly hiding the fact that the road abruptly ends at the wall. Vehicles will also help here. (Don't worry too much about taking the road up the wall ... it limits the correct viewing angle of the scene to a head-on perspective. Judicious use of carefully placed view blocks and a few associated visual distractions will do the job .

Gary S Wrote: ... I'm finding out that lighter hazy colors are what needs to be used, even if the photos of the scenes are much more colorful and dark. ... it leaves a hue of the sky color showing through giving the hazy effect ...

Now ... the second important undeniable truth! The farther things are from the eye, the more atmosphere there is between the object and the eye, softening the edges and muting the colors of the object. That's why when you look at the mountains in the distance, each distant ridge is hazier and more muted in color than the one next closest. The same holds true for painting backdrops, and why they often present better than photo murals. The whole idea is known as "Trompe L'Oeil" (trump loy) ... literally, "deceive the eye." None of that stuff is actually there ... it's a wall!

But this is a background visual device, intended to convince the eye that the world continues ... "beyond." Once again ... Less is More!

Gary S Wrote: ... Here's the tough one, street straight into backdrop. The vehicles help break it up. But, it definitely needs work. I painted the road up on the backdrop almost 1/2", then tried to do background trees that hang over the road like the prototype. Those trees are way off in the distance, I haven't exactly capture that, but will keep working on it.

Gary, you are putting one foot in front of the other, walking down the road of visual discovery! I had to comment because it excites me to watch someone discover these things on their own! Seriously, I'm just lovin' it!

Keep working at it! You are definitely headed directly down the road to successful background painting that will "disappear in the haze of make believe," just as you intend it to do!

Bravisimo!

Gary---I'm speechless hock: hock: hock: ---all I can say is WOW.HOLLY WOW

Very cool stuff, biL. Thanks for the thoughts, and now I'll be thinking even more about all this as I do the backdrop.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Vehicles will also help here. (Don't worry too much about taking the road up the wall ... it limits the correct viewing angle of the scene to a head-on perspective. Judicious use of carefully placed view blocks and a few associated visual distractions will do the job .

I noticed that too. Once I had the buildings in place, vehicles all over, and trees, the background (even straight down the road) doesn't hardly stand out. I think visitors will be too busy looking at the layout to notice that behind the road looks weird. Especially when the trains are running.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Now ... the second important undeniable truth! The farther things are from the eye, the more atmosphere there is between the object and the eye, softening the edges and muting the colors of the object. That's why when you look at the mountains in the distance, each distant ridge is hazier and more muted in color than the one next closest. The same holds true for painting backdrops, and why they often present better than photo murals. The whole idea is known as "Trompe L'Oeil" (trump loy) ... literally, "deceive the eye." None of that stuff is actually there ... it's a wall!

I had it in my head that the above was true, but for the backdrop, my first instinct was to paint it exactly like the photos. So I started out doing that. In the real picture, way off in the distance, there are trees that seemingly go across the road from each side, almost meeting in the middle. And, these trees are quite dark in the photo. But when I painted it that way, it was obviously not working. Vicki came out and saw it, and said "Looks like the truck is going the crash into those trees." So then I took my sky blue color and painted over the trees to get rid of them... but one coat of blue left the trees showing through, albeit hazy - woah! Now that looks like trees off in the distance! So I learned something right there which will help for the rest of the layout. There will be quite a few places where there are just trees on the horizon. I now have two techniques for them... a diluted wash of "tree color" which will leave the sky color showing through, or paint the trees in and then go over them with the blue. Anyway, point is, painting exactly like the photo isn't the proper thing to do.

P5se Camelback Wrote:Keep working at it! You are definitely headed directly down the road to successful background painting that will "disappear in the haze of make believe," just as you intend it to do!

Thanks biL, for the thoughts and encouragement!

Thank you Mister Nutbar. I paused from the painting long enough to run a train down the track, it was very cool to finally see one of my trains actually running through some scenery... incomplete scenery, but scenery!

Note to everyone: The camera angle in the photos above was just about eye-level and distance away for an average height guy running trains on my layout.

I do really love it and get excited watching someone make these, as we used to call it in one design office where I worked, very "sub-title" discoveries on their own! It just makes me feel good! It's all been such a major thing in my life since sometime in high school, when I got very serious about drawing and representing colors and textures and distances and reflections of three dimensional objects in two dimensions, mostly just cars back then.

biL, now the difficult part is deciding what detail to put in and what to leave out!

On the craft paints, here is my arsenal of little bottles that is used for all my modeling needs, except I did use house paint for the sky, and also for painting the foam on the layout. Oh.... I do use spray cans for priming and painting railings and such.

[attachment=19988]

However, I am trying to use only the big bottles shown here, mixing colors as needed. That way, I'm hoping the entire backdrop will be consistent. The big bottles are inexpensive, but the color selection isn't that great. Still, most scenery colors can be mixed from what is available.

[attachment=19987]

Here is an in progress photo just to show what is going on. I use a pencil and straight edge to lightly mark off the various edges, then use the diluted craft paint to fill in. The buildings themselves took 3 or 4 coats of the thinned paint. It may be just as good to use full strength on the buildings, but the thinned paint gives some control on the hues. It isn't necessary to stay exactly in the lines - after the paint is done, I use a straight edge and pencil to go between the major parts, for example, the horizontal gray band at the upper part of the building.

[attachment=19986]

And the mock scene at the other end of the Chase Bank building:

[attachment=19985]